This podcast explores what Charlotte Mason had to say about the skill of writing. Why do the children need to write? What writing must they do? How can they be taught penmanship, spelling, punctuation, and style? Join us in working through this incremental and crucial school subject.
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“I can only offer a few hints on the teaching of writing, though much might be said. First, let the child accomplish something perfectly in every lesson–a stroke, a pothook, a letter. Let the writing lesson be short; it should not last more than five or ten minutes. Ease in writing comes by practice; but that must be secured later. In the meantime, the thing to be avoided is the habit of careless work.” (Vol. 1, pp. 233-34)
“[T]here is no part of a child’s work at school which some philosophic principle does not underlie.” (Vol. 1, p. 240)
“The gift of spelling depends upon the power the eye possesses to ‘take’ (in a photographic sense) a detailed picture of a word; and this is a power and habit which must be cultivated in children from the first.” (Vol. 1, p. 241)
If you would like to study along with us, here are some passages from The Home Education Series and other Parent’s Review articles that would be helpful for this episode’s topic. You may also read the series online here, or get the free Kindle version from Fisher Academy.
Home Education (Volume 1), Part V, Chapters X-XII
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Great episode! I have some questions related to how to do dictation with a dyslexic student. How do you teach a student to visualize a word? This is a tough thing for me too since I'm also dyslexic. I can go back and worth with words letter by letter (when trying to copy a word I don't know) because I can't keep the whole word in my head. I'm clueless as how to overcome this. My oldest struggles with spelling and mentioned that he is struggling with the visualizing part too.
Cassie,
First, bear in mind that we are not professionals. Nicole and I have seen progress made by using clay in ropes to form letters, or by using wooden physical letters. I think a lot of work is for the child to understand his dyslexia and how his mind perceives things variously, and then to have him, with all his creative potential, figure out his own way to learn words. I do know some severe dyslexics who spell and I don't know what their tricks are. Time, practice, and perhaps realizing that they will never have that ability. I, for example, had to realize that as a blind person, I would never be able to do certain things physically and have just always had to figure out another way around it.
-Liz
I have a quick question about dictation and written narration with a dyslexic child. My 11 year old son has “stealth dyslexia” – he reads well, narrates well, and struggles greatly with spelling (omitting most vowels). I was planning on including an online spelling program created for dyslexic children (it is out of Australia and is called Nessy).
My question is…should I resist the urge to start Nessy and just faithfully do copywork and dictation instead? Should I be asking for a bit of written narration?
I’ve read Volume 1 and am reading through Volume 2 now. I’ve listened to most (maybe all?) of the podcasts and I’m just not sure what to do.
Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and advice!
Hello, Betsy. Have you done copywork and dictation with him yet? I would suggest spending at least one full school year doing both at his level (and done correctly – you’ve listened to the podcast on that I’m sure,) before trying a program of any kind. I haven’t seen that program, so I’m not rating it at all. I just think that when you use Miss. Mason’s method the child cannot fail, they are just constantly working at their level. That said, I have found a program can have great benefits for an older student, and therefore, you might want to use one later. For now, though, I would give Miss. Mason’s gentle methods a try. ~Nicole
Thank you, Liz.
Thank you, Nicole! We will try copywork and dictation for a year first. I really appreciate your help.
Betsy
This was a wonderful episode! Thank you.
Thank you so much ladies! This is a confusing subject at times for me, and I appreciate your explanation of what each part really is…copywork and dictation.
I was wondering if you may please share the lesson planning facet of the dictation lessons. I have never done this directly out of our school books without a "dictation curriculum" and am wondering how to plan what to chose to ensure that I am progressing along well.
Hope we cleared up confusion and didn't add to it.
-Liz
Erika,
I think the way you evaluate progress is by the child's work. If the work is being done carefully, the words spelled correctly, punctuation being used correctly, then you can progress to a little longer passages or more complex, i.e., dialogue that includes quotations, or longer sentences with more difficult words.
When choosing, I consider the skill level of the child for whom it is intended, select a passage that will likely contain some challenges, but is not overwhelming to my child in difficulty. I usually begin with portions that are below the child's reading ability, as writing lags behind it. I would not get too far ahead in choosing passages, so that you can best monitor what the child needs each week. I find it helps to keep some running notes in my own book as to which words are reappearing as misspelled, what kind of difficulties the child is having and what he is proficient with, and that helps me choose new passages that will keep challenging him without frustrating him.
-Liz
Just wondering if anyone else has thoughts on how effective (or not) copywork is for the non-visual learner. It seems to me that CM's methods rely very heavily on the child's ability to recall things visually. This worked for my oldest two children, but not for my middle two. They really never made much progress at spelling until I had them start to memorize phonics rules which they could recall orally. I understand that CM's methods could certainly prompt them to improve their visual recall, but it seemed liked really uphill work. Was this accomodation simply a failure to persevere in Charotte's methods? Or does she address this at all?
Charlotte did not address "learning styles," as that is a modern
concept–which has been debunked by research. I believe the wide feast accommodates children with all varying natural abilities. I personally am a "visual" learner, though I'm blind. I can prove that. At any rate, not every child learns successfully at the same rates. Slow and steady progress was the mark of the day for Ms. Mason. Her method relies on visual methods for copywork, picture study, dictation…and caters to auditory learners
in composer, recitation, oral reading…the point is that the whole broad feast feeds all, some particularly in some particular areas, others in other areas. Spelling is a visual association skill. Mason did not believe in teaching the rule until the child had discovered its reality. I trust her method because it has been proven with every varied kind of learner among my own children.
Liz
I am preparing to start our educational feast. This LA series was quite helpful, but I'm worried about choppy lessons. A small bit of copy, a small recitation, a small dictation seems choppy if done with different material. So am I to draw from the same passage so that in one block of time I would say something like "copy this word, recite the passage, and now listen and write as I read a different part"? That seems much smoother to me. Are copywork and dictation done in the same notebook or tablet?
Karen,
Short lessons do look choppy on paper, but make the morning school lessons lively and interesting to the child. When discussed as a subject, these language arts subjects may seem disjointed, but in practice, do not occur together in the schedule, nor necessarily on the same days, so I think your fear is unfounded. Children have an enormous capacity to enjoy the new and we need not worry about making all their connections for them. Copywork is visualizing words, as is dictation, but copywork is the child's choice for material, dictation the teacher's. These subjects do not need to be in the same notebook, though that is up to you; I find keeping copywork in one book brings continuity and the child can also see his own progress easily. Dictation is specifically spelling. Often the passage being read for recitation is above the child's ability for dictation and spelling and ought to be stretching them in a different intellectual direction as well. Reciting poems, scripture, hymns and Shakespeare have an entirely different goal. Most of the feast is centered on words, as our meals on food, but the purpose for the use of those various ingredients produces widely different results.
-Liz
I ordered the planning cards, and love them. However, I noticed that there is no card for writing. Can you clarify for me how much time should be allotted for written narrations during for Form IIA and Form IV. Thank you
Patty,
Sure. Written narration takes place within the lesson for whatever subject is being read and narrated. If the history or science or geography lesson is 30 minutes, then there are 30 minutes for the reading and the written narration. Obviously, the written narration takes a bit more time than an oral narration, so you will have to lessen the length of the reading, which is usually wise when a child is getting accustomed to writing their narration.
-Liz
I have a dictation-copywork question for my form 1B student. I'm seeing on the schedules that he is to be writing his copywork from dictation a good deal…is this because then he will have to visualize the word in his mind's eye and then write it? And does anyone have any suggestions for the amount of dictated copywork to do vs. copied sentences?
Lauren,
I hope I'm understanding your question. Most form Ib children are not reading, or at least, not much; they are usually just learning to form letters. Dictated means that the teacher would instruct the child what to write–3 G's, for example. If he can read, he should choose something to write from one of his books and follow the visualization and then writing from memory the word visualized as we described on the podcast.
Liz
That makes sense but my 6 year old wants to be able to look at the word and then look back while he's copying. But that would not be promoting his having to visualize the word so I usually let him look once until he thinks he has it in his head, then cover the word for copywork. Where I was seeking further clarification was if I was to just dictate (spell it out loud?) and then have him write it after that? Hope that made sense 🙂
Lauren,
Good idea to cover it up, and what I have had to do as well to train. The dictation would be saying the word, not spelling it, and that is also fine on occasion.
Liz
So essentially then they will need to be only doing for copywork what they can read and be able to spell back without looking. That changes things for me since I was having him copy poems that were his poetry recitations. Thanks for clarifying and bearing with me!
Lauren,
We're so glad to be able to help. Yes, he should copy what he can read, visualize the words, then write them down from his mind.
Liz
I just listened to this again, and I am struck by the fact that nowhere else do I find the instruction to visualize the word or group of words and try to write it without looking back. I think this is key, but it seems to be left out of the instructions for copywork, even when it says "Charlotte Mason" style copywork. I wish I would have started doing this with my struggling readers/spellers from the beginning. Lack of attention and a tendency to copy mindlessly create bad habits that are hard to break. Thanks for clarifying these steps.
RuthAnn,
I am inferring by it not having been written about, that you do not mean in Mason's writings. Please take heart that it is never too late to correct this habit and make progress from now on.
-Liz
So, between coming late to CM (7th grade), and imperfect understanding,and being overwhelmed, I have not always applied all of the CM feast in our homeschool. One area where I have been slack is with Dictation. My (only) student is a good speller, very visual, so years ago (before CM) I blew off spelling programs as a waste of time and money. We only sporadically did dictation over the last few years. I was listening to ADE #48 and feeling convicted, but then noticed that Form V Schedule does not include Dictation. My daughter is 16 and in tenth grade. So, am I completely off the hook now? Or should I include it because we haven't really done much with it in the past?
Dictation Question:
I see on the scheduling cards that dictation was done 2 times a week for 20 minutes plus 1 time a week for 10 minutes in form 2.
We have been doing 10 minutes of dictation per day using SCM's resource Spelling Wisdom.
My question is, why was the time different on the 3rd day? Why 20 minutes 2 times and then just 10 minutes the other time? What were they doing differently? And I'm guessing the passages were possibly much longer than the ones we are currently using to take up 20 minutes to study. My 9yo daughter does anywhere from 1-6 sentences currently and it takes her about a minute or less to study and then a few minutes to write them as I read them to her.
Help me understand this please. I may be doing this all wrong.
Here is how we currently do dictation:
I show her a passage from spelling wisdom that is anywhere from 1-6 or so sentences. She studies it for a moment until she is sure she knows how to spell the words and has noticed the punctuation. I take the book away and read her the passage slowly as she writes down what I am saying. If a word is mis-spelled I cover it with a post it and give her the book to study that word again, then take the book away and she writes that word on top of the post it.
Alisha,
There are 50 minutes devoted to dictation study per week. It is feasible to do 30 minutes one day and 20 another, or 25 on two days as well. The teacher selects a passage appropriate for her student from his schoolbooks. The student may study it for one or two days before having the dictation–sometimes longer. Yes, they study for words they may not know and work on visualizing and writing them just as in copywork. The teacher may select a portion of the passage to read to the student when he is ready for his dictation, dictating phrase by phrase, one time through. I believe all this is carefully explained on the podcast, so perhaps a second listen after this explanation will help.
Liz
We can't ever get time past back. If your daughter can spell, punctuate, write coherently, I would say the exercise dictation gives to build those skills is probably not effectual at this time. I personally never did dictation, but don't feel compelled to go back and learn. It is a very useful skill, and enforces and builds many skills, but just as Mason had a way of teaching math or reading, if you didn't learn those things that way, you still possess those skills. Mason did, however, continue English language study and if you study an essay by a famous author and want her to learn some new vocabulary, syntax, punctuation, then a studied dictation might help boost her understanding of the English language.
-Liz
Thank you for wisdom and insight and the great suggestion regarding essay study. I really appreciate your time on this blog and podcast.
Hello! I’ve listened to this podcast at least twice possibly three times now and I have a few questions. I have dabbled in CM since I started homeschooling about 6 years ago, but I am now “all in” and follow Ambleside Online pretty faithfully. Unfortunately my son has had to bear with my different educational experiments. He is now just turning 10 and is quite intelligent, loves to read, and has good memory. He is also perfectionistic. This can be a road block for him in so many areas. It mainly shows up in music, drawing, and worst of all, handwriting. When I hear you talk about doing one thing “perfectly” every day I wonder what exactly does that mean? If I tell my son to just do one thing perfectly, all he hears is “perfectly” and the rest of the writing/dictation/copywork is spent agonizing over perfection that he physically can’t yet accomplish. However if I don’t ask him to do his best, which he still translates as perfect, his handwriting is rather sloppy and careless. His cursive is quite good, but will only use it when I require him to do so and when I do require it, there is almost always frustration, tears, etc. I’m just not sure how to handle this. Should I take him back to one stroke, one letter, one word? This seems not challenging enough for what he is capable, but perhaps necessary to rebuild confidence? He didn’t actually go through the early copywork methods. Also, it is very important to him that he is known to be in 5th grade next year, however, I have considered redoing year 4 or a version of it because of his writing abilities. He is every bit ready for year 5 as far as his literary comprehension is concerned and he is doing fine in every other area… he just doesn’t want to write. I know this is common in boys. Do you have any suggestions on how to handle this? I have a daughter that I started in year 1 last year and is doing great. Thus I feel a little guilty not getting my oldest started right away, but he does seem to be enjoying Charlotte Mason style over all the other less than successful attempts. One more question that doesn’t exactly apply to this podcast, but the Solfa podcast. We just started working on Solfa last year, but I absolutely cannot get my son to sing. He’s too embarrassed. Is it okay that he just sits in on the lessons without participating? I know that it is not me that is missing out, but he. However, I feel badly that he might miss out on an important part of his education. I know he likes to sing, but mostly in private where NO ONE can hear him. He has even declared that it brings him great joy!
Hello, so If I’m understanding (total newbie) correctly, copy work is done by dictating the passage to them (Form1,FormII) not by them seeing the passage then copying? I’ve listened twice but still confused. Thank you in Advance.
Writing it perfectly is my biggest concern. Between perfectionism and poor muscle strength, I’ve been concerned about this area for my oldest son. Visualizing will not be an issue. His memory is practically photographic. Being able to make his letter perfect, that will be an issue. He can’t draw a straight line that is actually straight. He’s about to turn 10. I’m not really sure how else to help him. He’s had OT and we used to use Handwriting Without Tears which he found tedious (not to mention that his handwriting did what Nicole described, got worse the more times he wrote the letter). I know I need to do more to strengthen his hand muscles, but in the meantime what should my expectations be for copywork? I mean, what is realistic? What does “perfect” look like for him? Thoughts?
Does anyone have any recommendations for pens when starting the New Handwriting? Is broad tip the only key to getting the thick down strokes? My Papermate Flair isn’t fine point, but it isn’t making a noticeably different down stroke.
I am just re-listening to this podcast and I noticed Liz mentioning doing dicatation from reading a little below the level or their reading. I feel like I have often seen the suggestion to use their history or literature books for their dictations, but it does seem like those are often beyond what they can completely manage in term of spelling and syntax. So do you recommend trying to find books about similar topics to those they are reading themselves (same time period or science) or just select unrelated books for their dications?