Charlotte Mason thought Plutarch an invaluable source of knowledge and moral wisdom in the subject of citizenship. This podcast explores who he was, why Mason thought so, and how the study of the lives he described would inform and enrich our children.
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“In the same way, readings from Plutarch’s Lives will afford the best preparation for the study of Grecian or of Roman history.” (Vol. 1, p. 286)
“[T]he principle being, that, whenever practicable, the child should get his first notions of a given period, not from the modern historian, the commentator and reviewer, but from the original sources of history, the writings of contemporaries.” (Vol. 1, p. 285)
“Perhaps nothing outside of the Bible has the educational value of Plutarch’s Lives.” (Vol. 3, p. 236)
“[The Lives] stand alone in literature as teaching that a man is part of the State, that his business is to be of service to the State, but that the value of his service depends upon his personal character.” (Vol. 3, p. 280)
“…an early education from the great books with the large ideas and the large virtues is the only true foundation of knowledge–the knowledge worth having.” (Vol. 6, p. 308)
“We take the child to the living sources of history––a child of seven is fully able to comprehend Plutarch, in Plutarch’s own words (translated), without any diluting and with little explanation.” (Vol. 2, p. 278)
“We read him his Tanglewood Tales, and when he is a little older his Plutarch, not trying to break up or water down, but leaving the child’s mind to deal with the matter as it can.” (Vol. 2, pp. 231-232)
“[Plutarch] hath written the profitable story of all authors. For all other were fain to take their matter, as the fortune of the countries whereof they wrote fell out: But this man being excellent in wit, learning, and experience, hath chosen the special acts of the best persons, of the famousest nations of the world.” (Thomas North as quoted by Mason in Vol. 6, p. 274)
If you would like to study along with us, here are some passages from The Home Education Series and other Parent’s Review articles that would be helpful for this episode’s topic. You may also read the series online here, or get the free Kindle version from Fisher Academy.
Home Education (Volume 1), pp. 286-87
School Education (Volume 3), pp. 152, 235, 280-81, 286-89
Ourselves (Volume 4), Book I, Chapter 2
Towards a Philosophy of Education (Volume 6), Book I, Section II, “Morals and Economics”
(Contains affiliate links)
Stories from the History of Rome (free online)
Anne White’s Study Guides (free online–scroll down to individual Lives listings)
The Children’s Plutarch (free online)
Another great episode!
I began Plutarch (with Anne White's Publicola guide) with my 10yo son a month or so ago. However, we have not yet done any study of Ancient Rome, not even stories. I am using the history rotation that you shared in earlier episodes and I don't have any more time to give to history (we already do it four days a week because my kids enjoy it so much).
What would you recommend? We are going to keep up some history reading over the summer but not Plutarch. Would it be worth reading even a few stories from the Stories of Rome over the summer?
Thank you!
This was another helpful episode! Do you think it's too late to start Plutarch with older students (11 & 15)? I know you will say no, but I have to ask, lol! Here is a problem we had with Plutarch when I tried for the first time to read it to my boys, all the names,people, and unfamiliar vocabulary! I have mild dyslexia and so do my boys and we struggle with pronouncing unfamiliar words and rememberimg names. Plutarch has both of these and it was nearly impossible for me to read to them. I have not given up yet though! I think I need to read the story first (like you suggested) and make notes on the names (and how to say them) and keep a list within view of while reading to remember who people are while reading. Any other suggestions? Have you found any audios of Plutarch?
Cassie,
You are right, we would say it's not too late to begin. Your children are at prime ages. Yes, there are audio versions out there if you do some digging, one available in our public library system here. It is always a good idea to pull some names out that will come up and write them out for all to see and maybe practice pronouncing first. It, as you say, is also a good idea for the mom to pre-read it if possible. The challenge of the vocabulary is part of the lesson in addition to the lesson in morals and public leadership. Best of all, the mental challenge of comprehension and unfamiliar vocabulary will get easier the more you read his lives. Tune in next week for some more tips from another seasoned Plutarch-reading mom!
Liz
Kelly,
Glad to hear you enjoyed the Plutarch podcast. I hope it was clear that Plutarch is not history, but citizenship. As to your history question, if your child is ready for ancient history, fifth grade or so, that study will take up one of your history days. Perhaps you are trying to do too much American or British history in addition? If you are considering studying Rome, is your history period, then, the 1800-1900 time period? Perhaps you can cut back on the amount of history for each individual stream you select for next year, keeping in mind the three streams, one for each day of the week, about 30 minute lessons in form 2.
Liz
Another great Podcast. You said that CM studied Plutarch through grade 9. Looking at the PUS list I see it listed for Form II, Greek or Roman Lives for Form III (Is this the same as Plutarch)? and Euclid (the mathematician?) for form IV. Is this right?
Laurie,
Greek and Roman Lives are indeed Plutarch, but in grade 4, remember, she used the Mrs. Beesly book, as an intro to Plutarch. When she refers to Euclid, that was the subject of geometry, so no, that isn't Plutarch. They did Plutarch under Citizenship in Forms III & IV.
-Emily
Thank you Emily. I officially started reading CM today. Ten minutes a day! Small enough, as you said, to get something read and I will finish someday.
Laurie,
What's good for our children is good for us too–short lessons. We learn best by the slow drip method. Enjoy!
-Liz
How interesting that students in Y4 didn't read Plutarch but instead were reading the book about Roman History by Mrs. Beesly. Since Plutarch is read for citizenship instead of history, I'm surprised by this. I can see how it could make Plutarch a little more approachable with that year of Roman History… but having done it the other way I can also see how this certainly isn't necessary.
We're in our third year of our Plutarch studies. My Y4 student has been listening in for a couple years and is narrating it this year for the first time. He's doing very well with it and it has become one of his favorite books we read aloud. But I can definitely see the different levels of ideas my Y8 student and Y4 student grapple with in the readings. I'm so glad it has been part of our weekly work, we've had some wonderful conversations because of Plutarch.
It's a matter of scaffolding, which we see often in a Mason education. Scaffolding leads to a more robust "relations". I didn't do it with my older kids either, because I didn't know any better, but I've been amazed to see the difference it's made for my younger children when this component was added.
It's good to hear how much your family has gotten out of it. It can be daunting subject for new CM moms, but it is worth the effort.
~Nicole
Amber,
Mrs. Beesly's book is in fact an introduction to Plutarch rather than an introduction to Ancient Rome, as most of the stories in this book are anecdotes retold from Plutarch's Lives. The author does use Livy as another source, but this was used by Mason as an gentle introduction to Plutarch rather than Ancient history.
-Emily
That's good to know about Mrs. Beesley's book, thank you – I missed that from the podcast. I wonder if having heard Plutarch for a couple years before being expected to narrate it helped to scaffold my y4 student in a different way? I will definitely consider including that component with my younger children when they are at that age though.
I am planning on including an ancient history stream next year and I'm very excited about it. I used to have three streams a number of years ago, but dropped it because it seemed overly complex. At the time I thought it was because of the three streams, but upon listening to your history podcasts and reflecting, I realized that it was because I was including far too much in each stream. I was also doing it with too young of a student. Thanks for this podcast, it really has been so helpful!
Amber,
So glad to be of help.
-Liz
It was not your fault I was thinking of Plutarch as history! These podcasts are so meaty that I am listening to them two and three times. I would have gotten that eventually! 🙂 (I need to narrate more, I think.)
Our four-day-a-week history rotation is:
Monday – Form I American history (10m), Form II American history (20m)
Tuesday – Form I American history (10m), Form II British history (20m)
Wed – Form I American history (10m), Form II Ancient/Biblical history (20m)
Thurs – Both Forms, a supplemental bio read-aloud to WWI (20m)
My Form II student will be 11 soon and is considered 5th grade. We began studying Ancient Egypt last autumn as our entry into ancient history study. Half-way through the year, I implemented the history streams and added Plutarch. So, we have not studied Ancient Rome; we did not have that introduction to Plutarch that likely would have been helpful. (Side note – I was confused as all get-out over Plutarch so I asked my son if we could begin Publicola's story again. He looked puzzled and assured me that he got it. When I asked him to explain it to me, he did! And this with no Ancient Rome study. CM's methods of spreading the feast and narration are second to none!)
Would it still be worth reading the Stories of Ancient Rome over the summer? I will likely suspend or reduce our history streams and Plutarch then anyway so could schedule that. My boys love history.
Thank you!
Kelly,
It is a temptation to try to squeeze everything wonderful in, but we must beware of cram. it might even be good if you cut one of your American history sections out. I don't think I would worry about the roman history–as your son is proving, Plutarch itself is the introduction to the history of Roman and Greek cultures that will eventually enter into that ancient stream in a year or two–and that will be just the right time when it happens. That is my advice. It is difficult to be patient, but patient pursuit will accomplish more than filling to overflowing.
-Liz
I wanted to follow up from my question in April. We are reading Plutarch this year! We've been reading weekly since August and it's wonderful. We are using the F. J. Gould translation The Children's Plutarch: Tales of the Greeks and it has worked wonders for us. It's easy for me to read aloud and we are all understanding it and it's enjoyable.
Cassie,
We are glad you are enjoying it. In my family it has actually become something my kids and I look forward to!
However, we must encourage you to tackle the unabridged Plutarch If your children are old enough, 10 or more. It is important not to hinder our children intellectually. If they have gotten an idea from the translation, you might find they can handle the big idea in the North or Dryden translation. They are capable of more than you think, just take it in very small portions.
Still, you personally may benefit from reading the Gould translation to prepare. I know it helps me read "into the children" if I have a clue what is going on, so I have done something similar in the past.
~Nicole and Liz