Episode 339: Fine Arts Part 2, Music Appreciation

Episode 338: Fine Arts Part 1, Art Appreciation

Children should learn pictures line by line, group by group, by reading not books but pictures themselves, Charlotte Mason writes. At a time when colored reproductions were non-existent, she required each student in her schools to own their own set of art prints. In this episode of the podcast, we’re going to discuss how and why to teach art appreciation in the Charlotte Mason Method.

Listen Now:

Charlotte Mason, Volume 6 (Amazon) (Living Book Press – use code DELECTABLE for 10% off!)

ADE Vol 6, Chapt 10 Reading List

Emily’s Picture Study Portfolios from Simply Charlotte Mason

Artist Study from Riverbend Press

Picture Study from A Humble Place

ADE on YouTube

Emily
Welcome to A Delectable Education, the podcast that spreads the feast of the Charlotte Mason Method. I’m Emily Kiser and I’m here with…

Nicole
…Nicole Williams…

Liz
…and Liz Cottrill.

Emily
Well, not all ideas can be conveyed in words alone. How does one communicate the glory of a sunset or the loving look a child exchanges with his mother? We need to learn the language of images and the great artists of the world help us to do that.

In volume four, Charlotte Mason says, “there are those present with us whom God whispers in the ear through whom he sends a direct message to the rest. Among these messengers are the great painters who interpret to us some of the meanings of life. To read their messages aright is a thing due from us.” That’s kind of weighty words. We have a duty to read the artists aright. Nicole, why don’t you try to lay it out how Charlotte Mason thought we could do this with our children.

Nicole
Yeah. Well, in a Charlotte Mason education, Picture Study, that’s what we call it, Artist Appreciation, but we often refer to the lesson as Picture Study, begins in Form 1. And it, with some additions, it doesn’t really change all the way through school, right? I mean, you truly have every single term, an artist and six pictures assigned, from that same artist, so that the students are really learning that artist’s style, the colors they use, the things they’re painting about. And they’re just really coming to know them even if they haven’t seen that particular painting, they might see it on a wall and recognize it. So they’re really familiar with that artist.

Just for clarification, Charlotte Mason stated that the pupils should learn how to appreciate rather than how to produce. And we are talking about Art Appreciation and there are subjects in which they would learn how to produce some art.

Emily
We’re going to talk about that in a coming episode.

Nicole
Right. But for now, what we’re talking about is truly just learning to recognize. But there’s also an aspect of this is that they are learning to visualize it and be able to tell back. So like every episode we talk about narrating what they have learned or taken in and they, it’s no different with this.

Emily
Correct.

Nicole
So again, they’re doing it the same way all the way through with some additions, in that as they as they grow they’re sometimes drawing a portion of that painting–

Emily
Always from memory. I can’t stress that enough.

Nicole
Yes, good. And and often in the early days on chalkboard and so maybe maybe that’s different for you in your home but–

Emily
Whiteboard.

Nicole
Whiteboard, yeah, something that it’s just discarded; it’s really about the memory more than it is the ability to draw it.

Emily
Correct.

Nicole
Right.

So then in Form 3, so seventh and eighth grade, we see assigned on the programs where Charlotte Mason said study, describe, and draw from memory details of six reproduction of pictures by the artist. But those drawings were more detailed, not just a simple line drawing. And again, from memory.

Emily
Yes. And often she’ll say to do it in a monochrome, like you’re not trying to match the colors. You’re just trying to capture some of the light and shade, the form.

Liz
Of the whole picture?

Emily
Details. So you might focus on a face or a particular tree on the riverbank or some hands or something like that.

Nicole
Hands are what I always think of, I don’t know why.

And then in high school, there is an added thing and that is that they’re reading some books. So the books would teach art history and then they have some architecture books too. And this really just pulls together for them the understanding of, I’ve lost the word, like the fields, the…

Emily
Schools.

Nicole
Schools of styles and throughout history and kind of just kind of, I feel like in a lot of ways everything we do is that the students are experiencing it first and then they’re getting words and more explanation later.

Emily
Yeah, just like we have been talking recently about Grammar naming the parts of speech that they’ve been using. They’re absorbing all of that information unconsciously. Like when we’re introducing the artists, we’re not saying this was a Romantic painter and this is a Baroque painter and this is a Rococo painter, whatever it is, we’re not giving them any of that information. So moms take a breath of, sigh of relief. You do not have to know any of that information to do Picture Study well in your home.

But then in high school, these highest forms, they’re actually starting to read about that and putting the people into their schools.

Liz
But by then it means something to them because they’ve known these different artists. Now does this have to tie to the historical time period they’re studying in history?

Emily
Charlotte Mason would say absolutely say yes. It was the humanities, the literature, the art, the music that had to illuminate a historical time period. So in those upper forms it’s especially important that the time period you’re studying you’re doing your artist from that time period.

Yeah well let’s talk a little bit about the lesson format. So this is a very simple lesson to include and I don’t know why people are so intimidated, maybe, that they keep them back from doing it. It’s one 10-minute lesson a week and it is one of those lessons of delight for most children.

Liz
And easy to implement. It takes so little prep on your part. It’s like why would you leave out one of your easiest parts?

Emily
So we recommend another 20 minutes in high school, so Forms 4-6, one additional 20 minute lesson for that reading that Nicole was just talking about, where they get that more systematic. It’s tied to their historical time period, and hopefully the artist that they’re studying is going to be put into their context by the time they get to that.

So this is what an individual Picture Study lesson looks like. And this is, it’s so easy guys. You can do it. You have your children look at one picture for several minutes and take in that image, and make a picture in their mind. That’s what I always say. And close your eyes. See if you can see it. If some of the details are fuzzy, open your eyes and look at the picture a little more until you have it.

And then I have my kids turn it over. So I know when they’re done with their looking, but it’s like three to four minutes if any younger kids can do like one to two, you know, it is training your eyes to absorb more information. And then we narrate what we saw.

Now I have noticed from doing this with my own children, but also many, many other children, they, children tend to focus more on the detail that was interesting to them first. And so I came up with this, I actually may have borrowed it from somebody, I don’t know, but I started doing this thing, maybe after we went to a field trip to an art museum. And I said, okay, before you start telling me, I want you to pretend that I work at the museum and you want to come in and see this particular painting and you don’t know the name and you can’t remember the artist. And you have to describe it well enough to me so that I, as a museum worker, can know which picture you’re talking about.

They love this. And if I forget to say this, someone will remind me, remember, mom, you work at the museum. But that has been much better in that they first tell me the big picture and, you know, instead of the there’s 32 ducks on the pond, whatever it is that they like spent their time counting all of those, those things. And so that has worked really well for us.

And then after they’re done narrating it, which again just takes a couple minutes, we can have a tiny discussion. And not like what school of painting is this? or how the artists use chiaroscuro to bring this figure out of the background or whatever it is, right? It is what time of day do you think it is? What do think that person is doing? You know, anything that they might want to talk about more, you might not even have the answer. You might just ask the question and they think about it a little longer, right?

Liz
That was me for sure because I didn’t even see the picture so I would just ask those questions so that I could picture it in my mind.

Emily
Yeah. So Charlotte Mason was adamant that they do six pictures per term and I just want to affirm what you said, Nicole, that they will see pictures they never studied by their artists and say, is that a Millet? or that looks like a Van Gogh? because you, after seeing multiple examples of an artist’s work, do absorb their style.

I remember as an art student in a college going to the Art Institute of Chicago and from across the room seeing a picture and just like going, I think that’s such and such, you know, it just gets engrained into you even though I’d never seen that picture before. It was just something about the artist’s style. And no one was describing this is what to look for in a Renoir or whatever. So it’s very simple.

I should say those images that they do– so we have six pictures and there’s 11 weeks of lessons. A short biography can be read to interest them in the artist’s life. Usually those really help set the stage of why they painted, what they did, in what place they were at. Those drawings from memory that start out as simple like the main lines or principal lines of the picture, just showing where figures and objects are in the picture, from memory.

As they get older then they’re doing those details up and in the highest form she would actually have…and you’ll notice in Form 3 it was every picture, they were supposed to do details from every picture that they had studied whereas in earlier forms it would just maybe be a couple you know or one a term. In higher schools they were to do a full monochrome reproduction of it from memory, not a copy. Charlotte Mason said it was a mistake to ever have the children copy directly from the picture because she said it would make them lose reverence for the work of art. So they are free to do that but just from memory and that’s increasing their powers of visualization.

So this is a very simple lesson that everybody can do but it has a huge impact on a child’s life, and it’s very enjoyable and it’s a great break between two very meaty books. I’m thinking about my second and third graders reading Pilgrim’s Progress, it’s a great relief to have. It lightens the load.

And Charlotte Mason did believe that we see this in the programs that everybody was to have their own set of pictures. And so I do get a set of pictures for each of my kids. It’s an investment, but they, I will see them pulling their binders out, they have them in the page protectors, and re-looking at them. And they’ve noticed how similar that Tanner’s picture, excuse me, Monet’s pictures were to Turner and they’re literally comparing, this reminds me of this one and I said, I had never told him this, said, actually Monet was inspired when he went to England to escape the Franco-Prussian War. He saw Turner pictures in the art galleries and that inspired him and they’ve made that connection on their own just from looking at past artists that they had studied.

I could go on and on, guys. We’re moving on. It’s a very simple lesson. I could talk about it for a long time.

The objectives that we have is to store their mental gallery, their art gallery that they carry along with them with beautiful images to increase their powers of attention and visualization. This helps with their reading and their writing and so many other subjects that use visualization.

And then as Nicole is saying, those older students then do get that direct teaching on composition, even some design elements in their reading books. But they have been unconsciously absorbing it for years. So it’s just really kind of putting, like a Book of Centuries kind of collects the things and then we see the big pattern when we get more and more added to it.

Our prep as teachers would be, of course, we have to get pictures for our kids to look at. There are economical ways, I know families that have bought art print calendars on clearance after January comes and they get those or art books or whatever. But you might also want to learn a little bit more about the artist, share biographical information that I mentioned.

Some resources. So I actually have put together a bunch of these Picture Study Portfolios. They’re sold by Simply Charlotte Mason. Inside each of these you will get not just six but eight pictures that are UV coated so they’re not going to fade on you which is good because we display these up in our school room, which is a sunroom and gets a lot of sun.

Liz
They’re pretty heavy.

Emily
And they’re scratch resistant so they are durable. There’s eight so you can choose your favorite six or do all eight if you so desire. And then I have a booklet just again outlining the steps of Picture Study. I include a brief biography in here and then there are notes on the pictures. So if you have time at the end of your lesson you could read a little bit more about the picture or pull out a couple of facts. So maybe your prep is just finding the one or two things that your kids would be interested in. Maybe you read the whole thing. Maybe you take one of those other days that you’re not doing a drawing or looking at a new picture and you do a deeper picture talk using the notes in the book for a deeper look at those.

So those are the ones that I have put together, but there are also prints available from Riverbend Press and A Humble Place has a very similar Picture Study package. Yeah, so there’s other places to get them.

So what questions do people have about Picture Study do you think mom?

Liz
I think that once you’ve done it, you can’t not do it again. You know, so the only people that don’t do it the ones who haven’t tried, you know, but I think a lot of moms who don’t have an art background like you are going to ask, you know, they’re worried that their child will ask them something they don’t have the answer to. And I would just say, you know, that is true in almost every single subject. And as parents and teachers, Mason said, we need to become adept at turning the question back to the child. What do you think? Why might that be? How could… and that kind of thing and get them to think about it. And you can always tell a child, I don’t know, I’ll look that up and see if I can find out for you.

If you don’t know art terminology, it’s okay. I know nothing about art and I’ve had my children look at pictures since even before I heard of Charlotte Mason and they all have an eye for art and are artistic children. In fact, [to Emily] instead of being the docent at the museum you could tell the children pretend I’m grandma and tell her what it’s like because that’s what I used to tell my children. I have no idea what’s on this page. You describe it to me.

It really is about the visualization skill that Emily mentioned, which is so important for life, is building eye memorization. Sometimes I would ask my children, besides the components that you’ve mentioned, I would just ask them what ideas they got from this picture. What did this make you think about? Or if you only had one word, what word would you use besides beautiful? Because a couple of my boys always would just say beautiful.

Yeah, so and I would just say that this is just so easy to prep. You can do it in the summer before school starts and just pick out your artists and get your packets together. And it’s just one of your quicker, easier things to do in a week. Do you guys know of any other objections that people have to the subject? They don’t have time or…

I know another one is people say well we do it at co-op and I would say so do it at home too.

Nicole
That’s a good answer. I was gonna say don’t. Yeah don’t do it at co-op.

Liz
Well it has a purpose like Emily said for lightning the morning load. She put those delightful things in there to make all their tougher subjects more bearable.

Emily
Yeah, and actually I think it’s the only thing my seventh grader looks forward to on Tuesdays because Tuesdays is his long day. We have to have Thursdays be a little bit shorter because of library and so he has an extra longer lesson on Tuesdays but right in the middle of the day he gets Picture Study.

Nicole
Yeah, it’s so easy to do. It doesn’t, you know, there’s not really a benefit to doing it in a co-op. I just think it’s–

Emily
And at home it’s one of the few lessons you really can do with your 1st through 12th grade…

Liz
…all together. It’s definitely a whole family thing. And that’s another huge benefit.

Nicole
I also just want to tell a quick anecdote that a couple of years ago I did a morning of lessons immersion class with more than 40 students.

Emily
Adults.

Nicole
Adults, yeah.

And we did a Picture Study. And while you might think adults, they have better visualization. Usually that’s the opposite.

Liz
Yeah, for sure.

Nicole
But I went person by person in order. So my last person was a man in the back of the room, actually. But all 40 of them had something different to tell them, all the way. I honestly, if I’d had time, but I was trying to follow our morning schedule, I would have just kept going back around again.

So there is something for everybody to share, even if you have a large family. But I like that what your idea allows them to tell more rather than just she was wearing a red scarf.

Emily
Oh, they give me all the details. I just make them tell me…they would get into there’s 32 ducks on the pond before they told me this is a landscape, you know, with a mill in the back. So just give the big picture and then they can add all of the things.

Liz
I would also just add that when you have an interrupted day or you have to go to a doctor visit or something that’s not in your normal scheme and so you’ve only got time to do a few lessons. This is one everybody drops because they think they have to do the math every day and I just want to tell you this is just as important as math. Everything at the feast may not take up as much space but they’re equal weight.

Emily
Charlotte Mason tells us that “this is what we wish to do for children – to cause the eye to rest not unconsciously, but consciously on some object of beauty, which will leave in their minds an image of delight for all their lives to come.”

We hope that you’ve been inspired to spread the feast of visual ideas for your students through Picture Study. Next week, we will be turning our attention to music, another subject that has new ideas for us to ponder. Please join us next time as we continue to spread the feast of the Charlotte Mason Method.

Episode 337: Language Part 4, Latin

Leave a reply

When Charlotte Mason admonishes us that we don’t have the right to pick and choose which subjects to educate our children in, her primary example is Latin. “But we do not know how much we are shutting out from Tommy’s range of thought besides the Latin grammar,” she says. “Latin itself is a means of providing our students with stimulating ideas.” Join us on today’s podcast as we discuss the teaching of Latin in a Charlotte Mason education.

Listen Now:

Charlotte Mason, Volume 6 (Amazon) (Living Book Press – use code DELECTABLE for 10% off!)

ADE Vol 6, Chapt 10 Reading List

Visual Latin (can be purchased from a variety of retailers)

ADE on YouTube

Emily
Welcome to A Delectable Education, the podcast that spreads the feast of the Charlotte Mason Method. I’m Emily Kiser and I’m here with…

Nicole
…Nicole Williams…

Liz
…and Liz Cottrill.

Emily
Well, we do not have a lot from Ms. Mason on why she included Latin in her curriculum. It was really just a matter of course in that day and age. Education was virtually synonymous with classics in classic Latin languages.

Yet she does tell us that we may not reject Latin as a subject for our children, not because of the traditional reasons that probably her fellow Brits at the time would say, but because Latin itself is a means of living ideas, and we can’t predict which of our children are waiting to receive those ideas. She tells us, “Of course, it is only now and then that a notion catches the small boy, but when it does catch, it works wonders, and does more for his education than years of grind.” And all of that is in the context of talking about Latin.

So Nicole, let’s just take a big-picture look at the scope and sequence of Latin in a Charlotte Mason education. Do we start this, like French, at age six?

Nicole
Nope. For sure not. Thankfully, this one we do not do at all in Form 1. And even in Form 2, which is, Form 2 itself is grades four, five, and six, but we don’t begin this until what we call Form 2A, which is grade five.

Emily
Right.

Nicole
And at that point, it’s simple reading, learning words. By age 12, so towards the end of that time, they’re supposed to have some elementary Latin grammar, be able to read fables and early tales, and she said possibly have read one or two books of Caesar.

Emily
It doesn’t seem like that little.

Nicole
It doesn’t really, does it? But then, by Form 3, so grades seven, eight, they’re continuing the Latin grammar, which I think is also one of the really valuable parts of Latin.

Emily
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Nicole
Translation increases. They start doing parsing and rule application. On an exam for Form 3, we see that they are translating into English and back to Latin and parsing each word of a sentence and identifying the grammatical rules. So they’re really doing a lot.

But then in Form 4, that’s ninth grade, the caliber of the books increases that they’re reading in Latin. They’re reading more substantial classical texts in that language, fables, more Caesar, perhaps Virgil.

And then in Forms 5 and 6, so 10th, 11th, and 12th grade, they’re just continuing to read Latin authors, and translation and comprehension are really at a high level at this point.

Liz
And by parsing, you just mean pointing out the parts of speech, knowing which is the nominative case and which is the adjective and things like that.

Nicole
Yeah.

Emily
Do you want to share before we go on how your students who, I don’t know if this is the best time to do this, but you have shared with us that your dyslexic students were particularly thankful for Latin studies.

Nicole
Yeah.

Liz
My son, too.

Nicole
Yeah. It was really an odd thing, because with dyslexia, there’s often some memory issues. A foreign language was really hard for them.

Emily
Yeah. And also, it’s entirely written down, right?

Nicole
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Emily
They’re speaking it, but they have to read it in order to learn it.

Liz
The part that they can’t do.

Nicole
Yeah. But there was something about the structure and the just really straightforward rules that I think were very helpful to them, and it helped them with English, with spelling and stuff like that.

Emily
That’s so interesting.

Nicole
We went ahead with it, not right on target time-wise, but I went ahead and introduced it just

kind of on faith, and it was really popular.

Emily
And you never knew that until after they had graduated, that they felt like it was helpful.

Nicole
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Liz
What my son liked was that he could find the verb. He knew it was at the end of the sentence. And stuff like that. It helps.

Nicole
It’s very straightforward.

Emily
Mm-hmm.

Nicole
The English language isn’t always quite so straightforward.

Emily
It definitely is not, and there’s fascinating reasons why that is, but we will talk about that a different day.

So let’s talk about the lesson format. First of all, in the week, students from 2A through 6, so fifth grade through 12th grade, two Latin lessons, 30 minutes, or twice a week for 30 minutes, so an hour a week. They do that, though, for all of those eight years, whereas many other Latin curriculum, and we get this question all the time-

Liz
Five hours a week.

Emily
They’re expecting it to be done in a classical school or maybe even some public school classrooms where they’re doing the same subjects every single day for about an hour.

Nicole
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Emily
And so it’s about five hours a week. So we just have a lot longer to go over that same material. But because of that, it’s slower, it’s building on it, and we’re not learning something and losing it, right?

Liz
Cram isn’t always great.

Emily
Yeah. And yes, she uses that word in a very derogatory sense. Always talking about how Latin was taught during her time.

So Latin is a dead language. People will quibble over that term because people do– We can say the words, but what–

Liz
Churches still use it.

Emily
Yeah, sure. But the definition of a dead language is one in which no child is born and that is their native tongue.

Nicole
Mm. Oh that’s interesting.

Emily
And so it is. Many people learn and can speak Latin around the world.

Liz
Right.

Emily
But it is not something anybody picks up as their native tongue. And so because of that, it does have a different method in Charlotte Mason. I just want to make that distinction very clear because we’ve been talking for the last couple episodes on how we acquire speech- Hearing, speaking… And so we are starting with the grammar, and we are going to be reading it from the get-go. So because of that, it varies from those modern languages.

However, there is the use of narration, which is very Charlotte Mason. This is what she felt like her method did bring to the subject that was still – And just when you’re saying they’re reading these texts even from by 12 years old, like sixth, seventh grade – they are also narrating them. It’s not just translation. They are acquiring it as a speech. It’s just different than we would do with our own.

Liz
And it does sound intimidating for us to say Caesar, but I don’t think we have any concept of how short the Roman letters were.

Emily
That’s true.

Liz
They make the epistles in the New Testament look positively…

Emily
Lengthy.

Liz
Yeah. So they’re not long readings.

Emily
Like 2 and 3 John are long letters, and they’re Paul’s shortest…

Liz
So don’t be intimidated when you give your child a piece of Caesar.

Emily
Yeah. Charlotte Mason said that “Latin is taught by means of narration. After each section has been thoroughly studied in grammar, syntax, and style. The literature studied increases in difficulty as the student advances in grammar. Nothing but good Latin is ever narrated” – so same, no twaddle, no Latin twaddle – “so the pupil acquires style as well as structure.”

So if you haven’t yourself any experience with Latin, we have a program that we would recommend, and that is Visual Latin. I’m actually kind of doing resources out of order here. I hope that’s okay.

Liz
Free advertising here.

Emily
But it is a very enjoyable lesson with a Latin instructor and his video lessons. And he actually does a translation of Genesis 1 that they work on translating into English and narrating back.

Liz
Right at the beginning.

Emily
Right at the very beginning. He uses simpler words and sentence structure, but he’s doing that. So it is good. There’s also, of course, other traditional courses like Cambridge Latin or Lingua Latina that do base their curriculum on stories, so we can still use that narration component.

Liz
And could I just say that if you’re going to look for an online course, which there are many, just look for those that have these elements that we’ve talked about.

Emily
Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Liz
Because other people have very rigid, strict memorization…just a lot of tedium.

Emily
Mm-hmm. And so reading from stories, seeing full Latin sentences and then being able to reproduce those as in narration. And that’s why I wanted to highlight those resources before I talk about the other things I usually discuss in these episodes.

So there’s prep to be done. If you yourself do not know Latin and are not familiar, it really does help to work through the Latin lessons ahead of your kids because they may have some questions, and you might go, “I do not have any idea how to help you.” And usually, we can do those much faster because we are familiar with words, we’re familiar with the roots in our English that come from Latin.

So that would be the number one tip I would give you. Our objectives are to increase their understanding and use of Latin. Pretty straightforward. So that’s all I have.

What objections or questions do people commonly have about teaching Latin?

Liz
Well, similar. I think it’s very interesting because as I’ve studied a lot of history in recent days, read several history spines, they all bring up the fact that Latin went out of the secondary education or post-graduate education system around the turn of the century, and Charlotte Mason continued to use it.

Emily
Yes.

Liz
She didn’t do anything just because it was or wasn’t done elsewhere. She always had a purpose for it. So I think it’s really good to know the why of what you’re doing here, and we’ve talked a little bit about that here in this class.

Emily
Yeah. Even the English grammar, and when you read about it in this section of Volume 6 that we’ve been going through this season. Or no, I’m sorry, it’s actually in Home Education where she talks about English grammar. She said Latin grammar is actually more straightforward and helps the child understand English grammar.

Liz
Oh, absolutely.

Emily
So there are lots of benefits.

Liz
Countless moms have reported to me that their children are just whizzing along in Grammar once they start the Latin. So it’s definitely a great connection there. And I just want to encourage moms, I know we all feel we can’t add another thing to our plate. But as Emily said, if you would just do the lessons ahead of your children, I actually found it to be kind of soothing. It was like solving a puzzle. It was very straightforward. It wasn’t ambiguous at all. And it was like sewing new ideas in my mind. I thought it was nourishing to me actually.

Emily
Mm-hmm.

Liz
And I do enjoy languages, but it was just fascinating to discover things, I felt like. And of course, we know that a lot of our language is based in the Latin, as much as 60%, maybe coming from the Romance languages, Italian, German, Spanish, and French.

Emily
German’s not…

Liz
It is a Latin-based language, though. And a lot of the German grammar is very close to the Latin grammar.

Emily
I learn something new every day.

Liz
Yeah, well, I didn’t get far enough in German to really concur that fact, but that’s what I’ve been told. But I think what you said about the dead language, part of that is to realize that all languages are very fluid.

Emily
Yes.

Liz
Words that we say today, I’ve used words that I used when I was a child and had my children just freak out. Like, “What are you saying?” Because it has a different meaning now.

Emily
Yeah. But Latin doesn’t change like that.

Liz
And Latin doesn’t. And so for your children who really maybe are a little OCD, and they just like things to be true or not true, and they’re very black and white, they will love Latin. And what Mason loved about it is that it teaches precision, that there actually is such a thing as an exact meaning. And it doesn’t have 1,000 shades of gray to it. And so that’s what helps them with the translation. So whatever program you pick out, make sure that they are doing a lot of translating back and forth between English and Latin.

And just, it is still very much with us. I have talked to moms that keep a little booklet for their kids, and whenever they spot Latin phrases anywhere, they put it in their book, and they have discovered hundreds of them just living life.

Emily
Carl Linnaeus gave them a Latin-ish name.

Liz
Right. He put himself in there. And then it’s really fun to know what a flower is by that Latin thing because you’re like, “Oh, that means red, and that means branching,” or whatever. Yep. And medical terminology. I used to be a medical transcriptionist way back in the Dark Ages, and I had to memorize hundreds of – it seemed like hundreds, probably was – roots, prefixes, suffixes. I always knew what the doctor was talking about because of the words. And I still find that when friends are going through medical things or I am, that I understand a lot of the terms. They’ll start to translate it, and I’ll… It does have still very practical value.

Emily
Two things. One, my friends in high school who were applying to prestigious universities all studied Latin on their own, and it was to help with ACT, like the word component, right? Vocabulary. That’s the word I’m looking for. I know.

Liz
Vocabulary is what she’s looking for.

Emily
But I was thinking, isn’t there a PNEU article, a PR article or somewhere about someone saying it’s sad when we don’t know the Latin because we see the relationship between species more than what the common name of plants or whatever?

Liz
Yes.

Emily
Do you remember now what I’m talking about? Do you remember that thing?

Nicole
I don’t remember it.

Emily
Okay. But just that we miss connections because we aren’t familiar with the Latin. And just, this is what Charlotte Mason means when she says there’s living ideas to be explored and discovered in these things.

Nicole
Yeah. That’s great

Emily
Just this week, my boys are reading their Roman history book, and it said, “Veni, vidi…” Oh, no, it was in our Plutarch. And Plutarch translates, or doesn’t translate. I mean, he does. He says, “Veni, vidi, vici,” right? And he says, “I came, I saw, I conquered,” but he says, “But in no other language is it so pleasant to come off the tongue as in Latin.” So, even Plutarch.

Nicole
Yeah. You mentioned missing the connection in a totally separate subject, but I wanted to point out as we come to Latin here, that if you’ve listened to all of our episodes on this language acquisition, you see not only how each one has some of those same overarching principles with how it’s learned. You see narration all the time. You see translating back and forth. You see, in most cases, not this one, but hearing before you’re seeing.

Emily
Right.

Nicole
And things like that. You see the logic that is there and how this is almost like a brain exercise, a lot of these things. But I hope that people also see the connection between each one of these lessons to one another. And how every one of them helps, how Latin helps us with English and also with all of the Romance languages.

Liz
And science.

Nicole
Yes. There’s so much interconnection. And we are always saying that. Don’t just drop one part, and you started with that.

Emily
Yes. Because you don’t know what you’re going to be kind of crippling yourself with–

Nicole
Yeah … if you pull out a component. It’s like this whole tangled web of things, and you just pull out a piece of it, and what is lost in those other subjects because you don’t have that part of it.

Emily
And sometimes people really want to learn Greek, and I commend that. I’ve been trying to learn Greek on my own for several years…in fits and starts. Because I really do want to read and understand the original Biblical texts that were written in Greek. But I think the harder barrier to that is you have to learn a totally different alphabet, whereas you don’t with Latin, right? That does make it more accessible, and maybe Greek is another…

Don’t just stop. I think that this is the whole point of Charlotte Mason education is we are continuing to educate and build relationships, and educate ourselves more, and gain knowledge for the rest of our lives.

Liz
And the skills of translation in Latin will help you with the skills in translating. And a lot of the noun cases and verb conjugations, the terminology is similar in Greek. And it’s not ever used in English in most schools now. Yeah. They come up with much easier names for things.

Emily
We are so glad you joined us for the discussion today. Next week, we will turn our attention to the arts and dig into one of the most distinctive lessons in the feast, Picture Study. Thanks for joining us as we continue to spread the feast of the Charlotte Mason method.

Episode 336: Language Part 3, Foreign Language

1 Reply

Charlotte Mason’s school programs had students studying three languages, besides English and Latin, by the time they graduated. Why was the study of Foreign Language so important to her? We’ll explore that idea and lay out her method for teaching languages in today’s podcast episode.

Listen Now:

Charlotte Mason, Volume 6 (Amazon) (Living Book Press – use code DELECTABLE for 10% off!)

ADE Vol 6, Chapt 10 Reading List

TalkBox.mom (a variety of languages)

theULAT.com (French, Spanish; Italian and German coming)

aliceayel.com (French)

Academia Late y Llama (Spanish)

*You can also search on YouTube for “Comprehensible Input [target language of your choice]”

ADE on YouTube

Emily
Welcome to A Delectable Education, the podcast that spreads the feast of the Charlotte Mason Method. I’m Emily Kiser and I’m here with…

Nicole
…Nicole Williams…

Liz
…and Liz Cottrill.

Bonjour!

Emily
Bonjour. You want to say it in German?

Nicole
No. Hahaha.

Liz
Hola!

Emily
There is no subject included in the feast of a Charlotte Mason education for simply a pragmatic purpose. Instead, Charlotte Mason recognized that knowledge itself is delightful. And we never can tell what ideas are going to be the key that our child needs to open the door to the rest of their life. The study of Foreign Language may just be one key.

Though it can be very useful to learn a second language or a third in order to communicate with other people of another nationality or ethnicity, a way to love our neighbor even, Charlotte Mason believed, learning another language gives us much more. By learning another tongue, we learn to see the world from a different perspective. We begin to think differently and learn that other peoples are as we are with a difference. All language is metaphor, and to learn the metaphors of another tongue can be a revelation to us.

So Nicole, would you lay out the scope and sequence of how in the world we’re supposed to add multiple languages to our vocabulary?

Nicole
Yes. Well, partly I can tell you that. I can just tell you what was done.

Emily
Okay.

Nicole
So we see Charlotte Mason’s programs, through the assigned work that she gave, that Foreign Language was a steady stream of education, begun very early, even before school lessons began.

Emily
Right.

Nicole
And then just strengthened over time until students could really use that language. So in Form 1, so grades one through three, the Foreign Language lessons are primarily oral at that point.

As we talked about in a previous episode, at this point, it’s the same as learning our own language that students are hearing.

Emily
Yeah.

Nicole
And maybe not even being able to reply yet; they’re just hearing and trying to understand.

So her emphasis was that French would be the first one, and that it would be acquired as living speech, not as grammar. Training the ear to hear the new sounds and slowly the lips to be able to form them. She even said that the children shouldn’t see the words, so we’re really learning just an oral language at this time.

I just have to emphasize that we really have to do it though. We’re not expecting a lot to come back, but we are setting a lot of groundwork at this early stage.

Emily
Just think how much input your child, toddlers, have to have from infancy through to toddlerhood of hearing before they’re able to repeat the sounds.

Nicole
Absolutely. And we can use things like nature study, learning words there, or songs. So there’s a lot of ways that we can, just like we would again with just learning English, right?

Liz
And they say that even in English to an English speaker, if you hear a new word, you have to hear it 15 times before you’ll have the courage to say it. So I think that gives us some balance about it with our kids.

Nicole
Right. So in Form 2, that’s where it does start to get more structured at this point. Charlotte Mason still prioritizes language as speech first, but now students begin to narrate short passages in French after the teacher has read them to them, describe pictures in French, and move towards reading an easy French book.

And then also just important to note here that by the age of 12, Charlotte Mason said children should have some power of understanding spoken French, be able to speak a little, and read an easy French book without a dictionary. So this is really a bridge, I think in their language learning.

Because by Form 3, now we’re really getting into it. Charlotte Mason said they should be learning French still, but then she says we can add German, or better, Italian…or maybe both. But I would say just to remember that at this point, if they’ve already got two languages, English and French, settled, they are more equipped to learn more languages at this point.

Emily
Everyone tells us the more you learn, the easier it becomes.

Nicole
Yeah.

Liz
And it is just the easy part, like they started way back in first grade. They’re learning simple things. It’s not like they’re joining in at the level that they’re at in their French.

Nicole
No.

Emily
Or their first language, yeah.

Nicole
Yeah. But they are at this point reading and then narrating longer French stories.

Emily
Yeah.

Nicole
And they’re really beginning, I think, to maybe think in French at this point and take in ideas and express ideas. It’s not just vocabulary at this point, right?

Emily
Yeah.

Nicole
Then in Form 4, which is ninth grade, Charlotte Mason describes more use of advanced books and she noted that when possible, that the French and German books illustrate the history being studied, so the time period, but in their language.

Emily
So books that were written during the time period that they’re studying.

Nicole
Yes.

Emily
In history.

Nicole
Yes, and greater caliber of works at this point also.

And then Forms 5 and 6, so grade 10, 11, and 12, she describes just really higher level outcomes like narrating substantial readings in French. She even gives an example of a teacher standing and reading a whole long history account, I think it was extended, not short, and then the students just picking up immediately and narrating all the way through that.

Emily
In French.

Nicole
In French, yeah. And then she also talked about writing a resume, which Liz tells me is a summary, in French, of plays like, and you have to read them for me…

Emily
“Le Misanthrope” or “L’Avare.”

Nicole
Yeah. So whatever that means, but this was an interesting one too – translating modern verse into French. So that was interesting. We see that, translating back and forth and things. So really, just like our own native tongue, it’s really the same exact progression. It’s just set back a little bit because our children are learning English from birth. And maybe you have some French, and you can start that from birth too. Or you have another language that you’re starting from birth.

Emily
Exactly.

Nicole
But if not, then starting at least in first grade or maybe just before with nature study and stuff, and that same progression we see in English, the same grammar lessons, things like that, are going to apply.

Emily
Mm-hmm. So let’s talk about the specific lessons in Form 1, again, grades one through three. These are four 10-minute lessons that they cover vocabulary from pictures. They’re not seeing any words written in the target language. They’re learning short stories or even Charlotte Mason talks about the Gouin method, where you’re basically learning the steps of an action and learning how to say whole sentences that way. So three times, or four times a week, excuse me, and then another lesson, so really every day, a short 10-minute singing lesson in their target language. So really, 10 minutes every day for French or whatever target language you’re using.

In Form 2, that increases to 20-minute lessons, but it’s only three times a week. So it’s really the same amount of time, right? Did I do that math right? No, it’s a little bit longer.

Liz
Little bit.

Emily
A little, 10 extra minutes longer.

But then by Forms 3 and 4, they have three 30-minute lessons, which you just get a lot more when you can do a longer lesson than the short one.

Nicole
Yeah.

Emily
But then they start their other language, and they have two 20 to 30-minute lessons for that. And so they’re starting out with longer lessons in their second language. When you start your second target language besides your first that you’ve been working on since Form 1, there’s no injunction that they would not be seeing the words written. And I think that that is generally agreed upon–

Liz
They’re older.

Emily
–because they have firmly learned how to read in their first language, their mother tongue. Then they’ve been reading their second one that they are much more familiar with, and so now when they’re starting their third language…yeah fourth if you include Latin, they are able to do that without confusing the reading.

Nicole
I also wonder, because she talks about the pronunciation being hijacked by the English language, but if German was your next language, it’s much easier to sound out the German than it would be the French. So maybe that’s also part of it.

Emily
And then in the highest forms, Forms 5 and 6, 10th, 11th, and 12th grade or years, still three 30-minute lessons for their first foreign language, two 40-minute lessons for their second, and possibly third. So, there is so much time on the timetable for these.

As far as individual lessons go, the lessons are going to vary. This is a living speech. Think about how you learned English. Did you sit down with your baby and start working through systematically? It’s going to be much more variable.

Charlotte Mason did have a target in this earliest form, Form 1, that they would learn six new words per lesson, but they would also hear them in sentences. So we present vocabulary with gestures. We use pictures to convey meaning without having to translate and say what it is in our native tongue, right? And then to hear it spoken in whole sentences. So they are starting to get that grammar and syntax.

Students repeat, just as young children learning to talk will say things back, and we might say, “Oh, no, it’s like this,” and you just repeat it again.

Liz
Until they get it right.

Emily
And we’re not making a big deal of it. They’re just experimenting and trying to form their tongues and their lips and developing their palate to pronounce these different sounds. They hear short stories. They begin to narrate them, even in the very first year. It’s just much, much more simple than what they will eventually get to, and they have lots of auditory input to accommodate their ears to hearing the language.

And as they start to hear and understand, it’s perfectly fine for them to narrate in English what they’re understanding, right? We don’t have to have them immediately narrate to French. It’s showing us what they understand.

As they move into Form 2, they begin to read their target language, and then narration is still a key component, even if they’re just looking at a picture. The resources that we know that Charlotte Mason assigned and used, it was much set like that. There would be a picture with a story, and then the child would narrate. But it was basically repeating the sentences that they heard, and so in that way, they’re starting to get that.

They are also taught to translate, or expected to translate from the target language into English. And then, as you said, Nicole, they would also take English and translate it into French.

And Charlotte Mason said that first step, they would translate from the target, let’s just say French for simplicity’s sake. They would translate French into English, and then they would reread the French, and then they would narrate in French. So that’s kind of the next step up that they get. They continue to progress in their study of grammar and composition in the target language, just as we have done in English.

And she has several example lessons in Volume Three, appendix five, that are higher level French, German, and Italian lessons back there. So if you want to see the format for that, that is where I would direct you.

Our lesson objectives for Foreign Language is to increase their powers of understanding and speaking the language very simply. So we’re just helping them make slow and steady progress, just like in all our other lessons.

The teacher prep for this subject is really going to depend on the resources that you use, and also how familiar you are with the language. Some of us don’t know one, and so we’re going to have to rely on other resources. Thankfully, in our technological age, we have a lot more at our fingertips to use, and so that is just going to vary. But maybe you need to plan out sentences for the vocabulary words that you’re planning to use, or find pictures that help describe them, or passages and stories, et cetera.

There are so many resources that we could list that use what is known in the language acquisition community as comprehensible language input. What is it?

Liz
Comprehensible Input Instruction.

Emily
Comprehensible Input Instruction, which is really essentially the same method that Charlotte Mason was advocating. And we have compiled a list of those that just vary depending on the language you’re studying, and we will include those in the show notes.

Liz
Well, this is sometimes one of the most intimidating subjects, and I have moms all the time, “Well, I don’t know any language at all. I have no idea what I’m doing.” Well, I would just encourage you that when you start a Charlotte Mason education, you dive into a lot of things you’ve never done before, don’t you?

And then another question is commonly, “Which one do I choose?”

Emily
Yes.

Liz
And I always say, “Don’t choose the one you want, choose the one you know or have had at least a tiny bit of experience.” If you took one year of Spanish in high school, and you don’t even think you did very well in it, you’re still farther ahead to just go on into that.

Emily
Or what you have recently, like maybe you have an in-law or a family member that speaks another language that–

Liz
I mean, the most ideal thing for all of us would be to have a tutor. And you can pray for one of those to come along in your life. You can ask around at church, friends, the local library. There’s lots of ways we can find other native speakers. But if that doesn’t happen, like Emily said, you’re going to have to study it yourself and stay a step ahead of your children.

Another consideration, well, I guess I would just encourage you, because I have a lot of moms that tell me, “I had a couple years. I remember nothing.” Well, when Emily used to teach my youngest two French, because she knew French, and they loved it, and it’s really amusing to me because as adults, they still know all the things she taught them. But she got married and left me, and I said to the boys, “I think we’ll switch to Spanish because I know Spanish better.” Because I had three years of high school French, but had a different teacher every year, and none of them were very strong teachers. And that’s why I switched to Spanish in college. And that went much better, and it was more recent. It had been 45 years since I had had French, and at first, I did sometimes speak French, Frenish, as my boys said. But the French came back. I was astounded.

Emily
Did you teach Spanish or the French?

Emily
I did French with them–

Emily
Oh, okay.

Liz
–because that’s what they wanted to continue. I wanted them to switch, but they didn’t want to.

Emily
Okay.

Liz
So I just want to encourage you that even if it’s been a really long time, it will come back to you. Remember what we said about language acquisition. The more you hear something…so start listening to Spanish. Our libraries online are full of Spanish resources. Listen to the Bible, some chapter you know yourself, in Spanish over and over again. Listen to a whole book. Or what I find really helpful is listening to Spanish, or whatever language it might be, newscasts…because they speak very slowly and clearly, and after a while you’re like, “Oh, they’re talking about our president,” and all these sort of things. So, getting it into your own ear, and just do the lessons with your children. Work as hard as they do at learning the words.

And honestly, this is not something you can just turn in for those 10 minutes. That’s the formal part, but you’re going to have to be speaking that language with them all day, as often as you can possibly work it in. Don’t you think that helps a lot?

Emily
That’s why we really do like the talkbox.mom boxes, because they have words and phrases that we use all the time in our homes, and none of my children will say, “Please pass the butter.” They always say, “Passe le beurre, s’il te plait.” And just by replacing those things that we say all of the time. And so we often do those around dinner as a whole family, when my husband joins in.

Liz
And honestly, in this day and age, Emily alluded to this, with Google, any of the search engines, and all the AI we have, you can type in, “I want the translation of these English sentences.” And I think Google Translate on your phones has improved tremendously.

Emily
It has improved.

Liz
I will just say that for North American, especially in the US, we have a huge Spanish population, and you’re going to encounter that a lot, and it is an easier language, so if you have no experience, that might be a good place to do. You don’t have to start with French just because Charlotte Mason did.

Emily
Maybe we should talk about why she did French.

Liz
Well, I was just going to encourage them. However, if you would like to dive into French, I think having to do it for school, because it is a little more challenging than Spanish, that would be good. Because like we’ve said, every language you pick up comes easier, and Spanish is much easier. So they’re going to naturally encounter it more, and they would acquire a little bit of Spanish, just living.

Emily
It used to be that all English speakers also, educated English speakers, all…

Liz
They always learned French.

Emily
Yeah. Our language is very amalgamated by French.

Liz
Right. I think 60% of our words…

Emily
Because the Normans came over…yeah. And this is why we have words like sheep for the animal and mutton for the meat, because the nobles spoke French, and mouton is the word for sheep in French. We just don’t know how–

Liz
And you all know restaurant.

Emily
Yes, and theater, and all kinds of things. But when we read classic literature, even when written in English, even reading Charlotte Mason’s volumes, there’s a whole ton of French, just thrown in there untranslated…because they were educated. So for her, that was the natural first language to do. But–

Liz
And it was their closest neighbor, too.

Emily
Yeah. But you might…well, they didn’t learn Celtic or Gaelic, which were actual distinct languages.

Liz
True, true. But if you have a grandmother who’s Norwegian, and is in your life, or Portuguese…

Emily
Or you have a strong different cultural heritage.

Liz
Yes! Go for it. Yeah.

Emily
But as you were saying, the one that you’re going to be the most successful is the one that you can speak, even if it’s just a little.

Liz
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Emily
Do you have any other?

Liz
I don’t think so.

Emily
Okay. Thanks for tuning in today. We have links in the show notes for many resources for teaching Foreign Language in accordance with Charlotte Mason’s methods. We hope you’ll join us next week when we finish our look at language lessons by turning to the ancient tongue, Latin, as we continue to spread the feast of the Charlotte Mason method.

Episode 335: Language Part 2, English Grammar (Native)

When you hear that Charlotte Mason doesn’t begin formal lessons in grammar until Form 2, do you think she’s crazy? Or at least wonder why? A young Ms. Mason would’ve agreed with you, but after working with real children, she changed her mind. On today’s podcast, we’re discussing Grammar lessons in the Charlotte Mason method. Join us and find out more.

Listen Now:

Charlotte Mason, Volume 6 (Amazon) (Living Book Press – use code DELECTABLE for 10% off!)

ADE Vol 6, Chapt 10 Reading List

ADE’s Form 2 Grammar Lessons Guide by Mason (updated by Liz Cottrill)

ADE’s Grammar Lessons: A Short Grammar of the English Tongue by Meiklejohn (updated by Jessica Becker)

ADE’s Poetry Scansion Lessons by Jono Kiser

Episode 237: Writing: Grammar and Composition

ADE on YouTube

Emily
Welcome to A Delectable Education, the podcast that spreads the feast of the Charlotte Mason Method. I’m Emily Kiser and I’m here with…

Nicole
…Nicole Williams…

Liz
…and Liz Cottrill.

Emily
Charlotte Mason said that we have nothing new in the teaching of Grammar to suggest. But for those of us who are used to Language Arts curriculum and workbooks beginning in kindergarten, the Language Arts progression does seem quite different, not only compared with our own education, but also compared to what all the voices in the homeschool community seem to be saying, right?

Nicole
Mm-hmm.

Emily
Nicole, can you paint the picture for us of how Grammar fits into the whole scope of a child’s education?

Nicole
Absolutely. So in Form 1, so that’s grades one through three, there are no formal Grammar lessons.

Emily
Right.

Nicole
And instead, students are absorbing language naturally through rich reading or being read to, and narration. That was very intentional.

Charlotte Mason tells us Grammar is a logical study. It’s abstract, and it’s, she said, “Uncongenial to young minds who deal best with the concrete.” So at this stage, they read living books, they narrate, they copy passages, they learn poetry, they absorb correct usage while reading and even speaking, like we talked about in our last episode. They’re forming habits of speech and thought, but they’re not studying parts of speech, or analyzing, or parsing, or anything like that.

But then in Form 2, so that’s grades four through six, this is where the formal Grammar begins. And it begins with sentences, not parts of speech. Charlotte Mason made it very clear. She said, “It’s better that the child should begin with the sentence, not with the parts of speech, that he should learn a little of analysis before he learns to parse.” So at this idea, the first ideas that are presented to them are that words go together to make sense.

Emily
Yeah.

Nicole
And they kind of learn that, and then we teach them that a sentence has two parts, that which we speak of and what we say about it. So we’re going to start slow on top of all of that. Then we’ll move to dividing it into subject and predicates, understanding those words. Verbs are introduced, being verbs, and doing words. Exercises that involve prefixes, use of words in multiple grammatical ways, and so we’re still seeing that it’s kind of analysis before parsing. We’re not doing that.

Liz
And it’s all sentence work.

Nicole
Yes. So by the age of 12, we see sections in her volumes that say, “By 12, they should know,” and she said, “They should have a fair knowledge of English grammar,” just through these basic things.

Then in Forms 3 and 4, so this is seventh, eighth, and ninth grade, Grammar continues. But now they’re going to parse more complex sentences, they’re going to analyze poetry, they’re going to work with prefixes and word structure. At this stage, Charlotte Mason said that Grammar functions as one of the disciplinary subjects alongside Math and those kinds of logical subjects. In Volume Three, she says, “Mathematics, grammar, logic, leave the record of intellectual habits in the brain tissue.” So it kind of reminds you why we’re doing this and what kind of lessons these are.

So I would also say that at this point, it’s starting to support composition and translation, which we’re going to talk about in another episode.

And then in Form 5 and 6, so those are your grades 10, 11, and 12, it’s really integrated in the advanced language of studying and writing. At this level, they’re writing papers, they’re translating other languages back and forth from English to that and back again. They’re really reading deeply in both their English language and their foreign language, and the grammar – and even Latin – and the grammar is really helping them with all of that. So it really undergirds everything at this point and isn’t an isolated subject there.

So yeah. That’s the big picture. So she’s putting it off, but she’s taking it very seriously.

And we see that in how she presents it to the children over those years.

Emily
Charlotte Mason also says in Home Education that Grammar, being a study of words and not of things, and that children can’t dream parts of speech, is by no means attractive to the child.

Nicole
No.

Emily
And nor should he be hurried into it. And just like you said, that’s why we don’t see Grammar lessons starting in Form 1, and it’s one of those areas we have come to really trust what she says. We’ve seen it play out in our own children. And actually, I have to tell you, my own students who have begun the study of grammar, that is their favorite subject of the week, which can any of us say that?

Nicole
Right.

Emily
My husband, maybe.

So weekly in Form 2, there are two very short, 15-minute lessons a week for the study of Grammar. So they’re just slowly working through…it’s a little bite. And what you said about the logic. They’re always seeing words in sentences, which English needs to be…it’s where we put words in the sentence that depend upon its meaning, right? Our words don’t change like in Latin to give that meaning. And so they’re having to deduce always what they’re saying.

In Form 3, they have, again, twice a week, but these lessons are longer. They’re 30 minutes this time. So they’re actually getting quite a bit of time to work out even more detailed analysis and using their logical reasoning skills.

Form 4 cuts back to just once a week for 30 minutes. By now, they have got five years of Grammar under their belt. Grammar is a finite study.

Nicole
Right.

Emily
We use it all the time, but there’s only so much we need to know about it, so they cut it back a little bit. And then Form 5 and 6, we don’t see a subject called English Grammar on their schedules. Instead, it is English Language, and grammar is wrapped up into a lot of other things, such as word study, like learning the etymology of words, and also some reading and writing instruction. So it becomes part of that subject. So like you said, it’s all integrated and interwoven. And they do have two 30-minute lessons a week for that subject.

So as far as the individual lessons go, there’s really not a single format that a lesson has to take, but there are some common ideas. So the new idea is presented orally. Grammar is primarily an oral lesson. There’s practice, just like we do in Math, where they get to actually bring their powers of reasoning to exercises in looking at different sentences.

Liz
And by that, what you’re saying is the teacher instructs a little more than in most subjects.

Emily
Correct in Charlotte Mason we don’t have a book that’s doing the teaching at this point.

Liz
She’s explaining.

Emily
Yep. And then you can actually see some really good sample lessons in Volume One on pages 296 to 300. Charlotte Mason lays out a couple of different lessons herself. So the child then is introduced to the topic, gets to play around with it, work through it, and then he applies his new knowledge by creating sentences himself that use that part of speech, and he’s coming up with.

So it’s really taking his knowledge and owning it, I think.

So as he progresses, he identifies the grammar concepts that are in his actual school book. Whatever grammar idea he’s working on in his lessons, he’s looking in his actual school books for those. So it’s not a removed, isolated, compartmentalized subject, but is integrated into the very books that he’s reading and narrating and writing from. So you can see just this beautiful cohesion of this subject.

Nicole
Even just the fact that a lot of times we worry about changing to written narration, and we talk about how that transition happens, but the importance of when they’re older, still maintaining that oral narration and that they are using, how do I say this?

Emily
Different sentence structures. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

So he analyzes example sentences, and he works through the logic of what each word’s place is in that sentence, expanding and kind of adding to the knowledge that he’s gained.

Also in Form 3, they do a formal study of Scansion, which is the grammar of poetry, which is different. It’s the rhythm and meter and breaking words into syllables and foot patterns and rhyme schemes. So that is another facet of Grammar that happens.

Liz
In Form 3.

Emily
In Form 3 and up, mm-hmm. Yes.

So our objectives for our Grammar lessons are to increase their reasoning powers and their logic. Primarily, it’s not just to become better English speakers, right? It’s really honing their ability to reason. And then, of course, we do want to increase their knowledge of English grammar at the same time.

So our teacher prep for Grammar lessons is really just to look over the next lesson and wrap our minds around it. Maybe you’re like me and never had formal Grammar instruction and you’re really fuzzy on what participles are. Or whatever it is. So make sure you understand, since this is an oral lesson, that you’re presenting the idea. Thankfully, we do have some resources to recommend I’ll tell you about in a minute.

But another part of our prep is maybe they need more practice on a thing, so we’re looking over their school books that they’re using and just choosing out a couple of passages that they may need to work from.

So we at ADE have two of the resources that Charlotte Mason used, but we’ve updated them and included answer keys, which is, I think, essential for those of us who did not have study. So Liz herself redid Charlotte Mason’s own First Grammar Lessons, and that is our Form 2 Grammar Resource that we sell on the website, and you can find a link for that in the show notes.

And then once that is finished, completed, and the child has had lots of practice identifying those parts of speech in their school books as well, and writing their own sentences, then they can move on to “The Short Grammar of the English Tongue” by Meiklejohn, and we have two years of that resource. Which may take your child more than two years to complete because, of course, Grammar is one of those studies that Charlotte Mason said there must be no gaps in the child’s knowledge. We have to move at their own pace of understanding, and that is perfectly fine.

And then my husband, Jono, actually, has written us a Scansion manual for those of us who’ve never studied, let alone English Grammar, the grammar of poetry, and he has done additional exercises as well once your students have worked through that. So if you are lost completely on the word “scansion”, we have some–

Nicole
What’s that word even mean?

Emily
Yeah. Yeah. We have resources for you as well.

So Mom, do you want to tell us some common questions that you hear, or just considerations we need to make and think about as we place our children in Grammar lessons?

Liz
Yeah. I think some of us get a bit into a cold sweat, just like teaching Math. And probably the most common thing I hear is that I never learned it myself. And I just am here to tell you that when I was going through school, millennia ago, they were in a phase where Grammar was not taught at all. I knew what a sentence was, and I might have known a noun and a verb, but I knew no particularities at all. And when I had to do my college entrance tests, I think I did the ACT, when my scores came back, I almost had a perfect score in Grammar, which just floored me. But my counselor, she’s like, “Well, that’s not surprising. You know how to read.” So I really encourage you that if you’re a reader, this will make sense to you. It’s just putting names to things.

Emily
Much like in nature study, right? They’re familiar.

Liz
I was just going to say that.

Emily
Oh, you were going to say the same thing.

Liz
Yeah. That’s fine. You go ahead.

Emily
Just like we are familiar with by watching and looking at plants and animals.

Liz
Right.

Emily
And then later, we just gently introduce them to, Oh, that’s a stamen, and that’s a pistil, or the inflorescence or whatever.

Liz
So naming comes after experiencing things and knowing about them. And your child has had amazing grammar since childhood. And when you think about how much it takes to learn a language, to realize that from babyhood to, say, kindergarten, their grammar has improved tremendously over that time, and it’s just from using it. So there’s such a practical thing about grammar. We all know the right way things are. Maybe we get stuck sometimes and say things incorrectly, but we know it isn’t right.

So anyway, and that is another common thing moms just say, “I don’t understand it. It makes no sense to me.” I just want to encourage you that if you start with your fourth grader, and even if you have an older child, but they’ve not had grammar, you just start at the beginning, just like with Math and several other subjects. You’ll learn right alongside of them, and you will be having many aha moments. It will make much more sense.

A lot of moms are scared if their children ask them complicated questions that they don’t know the answer to because they’re not adept. And I’ll just say, in this day and age of instant answers, it’s not hard to Google and find out. But there are the handbooks for English Grammar, and they’re really helpful.

Emily
And also, experts don’t always agree, right?

Liz
Well, that is a-

Emily
There is sometimes not just one right answer in Grammar, and a child can make a case for a logical reason why this word is such a thing, and they can be right.

Liz
And like so many other things in life, some terms have changed. You might have called this a clause, and now they call it, I’m making this up, but they might call it a different name, like section or something. The names for adverbs and certain types of parts of speech have changed a bit. So yeah, it’s a living subject because our language changes too.

Moms often have the question, if their child isn’t reading yet, should they begin Grammar? And I usually do recommend holding off if they’re not reading at all. You could do some oral lessons and begin to give them the ideas of what a complete sentence is and how to even detect the subject and the verb in a sentence without them being able to read, but you will have to do it with them, which isn’t too hard in Form 2 because the lessons are short, and there’s just a couple every week. But you might delay until the child has more confidence at reading. And then some children, because they’re slower to get to read, they write slower, and they can’t always write all their exercises. It is fine for them to tell those to you.

Emily
Absolutely.

Liz
I had a son with learning disabilities, and he got through all of Charlotte Mason’s early grammar lessons, all four parts, and never wrote one sentence because he couldn’t do it.

Anyway, if you guys can think of some others, that’d be great. I just want to encourage you that with all the living books they’ve read, as Nicole pointed out, they are hearing beautiful grammar usage, and it will come out. It has come out in their narrations. It’ll come out in their writing, and they will understand it. And honestly, there’s no need to panic about all the parts of speech being nailed down because really, at the end of Form 2, she just wanted them to know subject, verb, and object of a sentence.

And like Emily said, looking in sentences in books can help. And just the principles that she gives you of saying to yourself, What is this sentence about? And then, What are we saying about it? will help you through even some complicated sentences in their history or their novel or something.

Emily
I think one thing that we hear, or the one common concern or query that we get all the time is, Can I combine my kids in this subject? And we would say, just like Math, Grammar, because there needs to be no gaps for the most part, unless you have two children who are in the same grade level and have the same understanding, you’re going to need to probably do these individually.

Liz
And they might be in the same book. One’s just beginning, and the other one’s a ways through it, and they could have their lesson at the same time because the older student by then is probably able to do most of their lessons on their own.

Emily
We hope you’ve gained more clarity on Charlotte Mason grammar lessons after today’s discussion. Next week, we’ll be talking about learning languages apart from our mother tongue. In the meantime, please check out the show notes for links to the resources that we mentioned in this episode, including our previous episode on Grammar, number 237. We hope you’ll join us next week as we continue to spread the feast of the Charlotte Mason method.

A Delectable Education Podcast

Spreading the feast of the Charlotte Mason method of education through weekly podcasts. Join us for short discussions that provide information, examples, and encouragement to the homeschool parents putting CM's ideas into practice in their homes.

Episode 339: Fine Arts Part 2, Music Appreciation

Episode 338: Fine Arts Part 1, Art Appreciation

Episode 337: Language Part 4, Latin

Episode 336: Language Part 3, Foreign Language

Episode 335: Language Part 2, English Grammar (Native)